Comments on The Journal of Joe The Peacock. Yay.: How To Actually Talk To Atheists (If You're Christ...

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2010-05-28T12:03:25.626-04:00

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Jtp Why should I believe that the purpose of t...

2010-04-03T19:32:03.714-04:00

Jtp
Why should I believe that the purpose of the article, written by an atheist,is to help the Christian religion?
For an atheist to lend assistance to any religion in gaining acceptance is hypocritical.
It seems a hypocrite can be found in every walk of live, not just within a Christian church but on the blog of an atheist as well.
It is presumptuous on your part to use banal stereotypes of Christians as a basis to critique a religion you reject and obviously know slightly more than nothing about.

Jtp Why should I believe that the purpose of t...

2010-04-03T19:30:14.358-04:00

tp Why should I believe that the purpose of th...

2010-04-03T19:29:13.192-04:00

tp
Why should I believe that the purpose of the article, written by an atheist,is to help the Christian religion?
For an atheist to lend assistance to any religion in gaining acceptance is hypocritical.
It seems a hypocrite can be found in every walk of live, not just within a Christian church but on the blog of an atheist as well.
It is presumptuous on your part to use banal stereotypes of Christians as a basis to critique a religion you reject and obviously know slightly more than nothing about.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. Christians wh...

2010-03-30T23:53:44.623-04:00

I'm afraid you've missed the point. Christians who witness are well aware (or should be) that without God Himself opening a sinner's mind to the truth, it will remain shut and skeptical. "Foolishness to those who are perishing", the Apostle Paul said, but a great liberation to those being saved. Spiritual things are "spiritually discerned" the Bible says. "I didn't come to you with persuasive words, but in the power of the Holy Spirit" the Apostle Paul wrote. Without that eye-opening power at work in the atheist/skeptic's life, of course the cross will seem like nonsense. If God hadn't convinced me I'd have thought it was stupid too.

Just read an article by you, Joe, & found my way t...

2010-03-13T13:18:00.360-05:00

Just read an article by you, Joe, & found my way to this one. Though more than a year overdue, I'll make some brief comments.

The heart of the article and many resulting posts illustrate repeatedly that straightforward Christians that are too aggressive should rethink their strategy. Many people commented about the overeager Christians with whom they've come into contact, and how offensive it is when religious beliefs take precedence over all other things. This alone, in many instances, is enough to push people over the edge and dismiss Christianity and it's believers permanently. I think everyone agrees on that.

To that I have one thing to say:

Let's figure this thing out for good where everyone decides for him/herself.....

TO BELIEVERS AND NON-BELIEVERS ALIKE:
For every person you know, have known, or will know, that you truly respect...TRY ASKING THEM WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

Think of everyone you've ever known and consider which of them you'd like to emulate most--we're talking really high-quality people here, like those you sincerely trust or look up to in some other way. Perhaps it's someone you don't know...find out. What is it about them that is so appealing? What do they have that you wish you had?

Chances are, some of the most respected people on this planet are Christians that behave exactly the way many believe they should with their religion: humbly and silently. In such cases, the people you think are really cool or have a fresh take on things may very well be Christians, BUT YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW.

Rather than passively judging others with what you know, look deeper for things you don't know. It's too easy to accept arguments based on hearsay or some bad experiences in your past.

Search for the truth and you will find it.

[4 of 3] Oh, one more thing... for those looking...

2010-02-10T02:48:50.745-05:00

[4 of 3]

Oh, one more thing... for those looking for an empirical view of the supernatural, I strongly recommend that you read "Miracles" by C. S. Lewis (and don't just rip through it... really think about what he's saying - he lays out a very logical defense of the supernatural).

[3 of 3] + If the person claims to be an Atheist,...

2010-02-10T02:39:49.360-05:00

[3 of 3]

+ If the person claims to be an Atheist, the same process is used. However, I believe it's fairly easy to bring someone from an atheist to an agnostic. To know that there is nothing of something, I have to know *everything* about which that item can exist. For example, if I said, "There's no gold in China," I'd have to check every mountain, every hand, every tooth, every mantle, every temple, etc. (and all at the same time, for someone could go behind you and bring it) to state as a fact that there is no gold. Additionally, if someone claimed that they knew a *monumental* 1% of *everything* there could ever be known - is it *possible* that God could exist outside of that 1%? Sure it is. To prove something does exist, all you need is a little evidence of it. To prove it does not, you need omniscience and omnipresence (which, ironically, are divine attributes). If the person is being honest, he/she would have to concede that he/she is really an agnostic (that he/she doesn't *know* if there is a God or not - but not absolute certainty that there isn't). At that point, an honest agnostic can pray and ask God to reveal Himself in ways that he/she would understand that it is Him (and it may not be instantaneous). If someone is sincerely seeking God, God will reveal Himself to that seeker.

Much of the above methodology has been presented by Ray Comfort (www.livingwaters.com) and Kirk Cameron (yes, of Growing Pains fame). They have many excellent free resources (two of which are sermons [they will *not* bore you]: "Hell's Best Kept Secret" and "True and False Conversion"). Additionally, I whole-heartedly recommend Paul Washer's full-length "Shocking Youth Message" (can be found on YouTube).

If you've read this far, thank you for taking the time to read. I hope it blesses those of you who do. If you would like to contact me, I can be contacted by e-mail: sidewinder314 - I have a hotmail account.

Again, I went from "telling others" to "living the life" (even published a four-page pamphlet with the title telling others to do the same) to "asking and listening." As for those who call themselves Christians but walk in darkness... a basic reading of the book of 1 John will amaze you if you just take it at face value without the "well, it couldn't really mean *that*" biases. There is a big difference between slipping in sin and diving into sin. Okay, I've said enough... Grace be with you.

-- Eric

[2 of 3] -- If innocent: Is that because you th...

2010-02-10T02:39:16.195-05:00

[2 of 3]

-- If innocent: Is that because you think He's a good judge? If so, let's look at a civil courtroom. Take a convicted felon who has committed rape, murder, and theft. If the felon is hoping to get off free because the judge is "good," the criminal should think again. If the judge is good, then the judge will sentence the criminal for the crimes committed, not just let the criminal go free. God is so good that he will be very thorough in punishing crimes on the Day of Judgment. So, if you're hoping for His goodness, the very thing you are hoping for to free you will condemn you.

-- If guilty: Do you think He should place you into Heaven or Hell?

-- If Heaven: Most people think they're getting there on their good deeds. But, let's return to the courtroom. The felon tells the judge, "Before I came here, I helped to build a house for the homeless, I gave away all my money to the poor, and I even helped an old lady across the street before entering the court room. There are many things I've done well. Doesn't that count? The judge will reply that those good actions have nothing to do with the crimes committed and the criminal still needs to bear the punishment for the crimes. Good works or being more good than bad will not get anyone to Heaven.

-- If Hell: Does that concern you? If they are sincerely not concerned, then the person should go on his/her merry way. If they are concerned (and sometimes the only indicator is body language), it is only at *that* point that the good news of the Gospel is shared. People must first be convinced that there is judgment and Hell to pay before the good news of Jesus Christ dying for their sins and atoning for them will mean anything. After the gospel is shared, the person is only told to read their Bible, follow what it says, and to find a good church - this is not a time to solicit or a church recruiting event; however, IF the person wants to know the church you are from - per his/her asking - then tell them. But ultimately, they need to be told that they have a lot to think about (as such series of revelations are often overwhelming). If they truly want to repent, they should ask God to forgive them of their sins, believe that He has, and go forward seeking to live (out of gratitude for what He did, not obligation in trying to earn any merit) in righteousness as best he/she can.

If God has regenerated the person unto life, He will save him/her and there should be increasing spiritual/righteous fruit in his/her life - not that the person is made perfect in the flesh, but that the person strives to please the One who saved him/her.

[1 of 3] Joe, I think you have accurately hit o...

2010-02-10T02:38:33.988-05:00

[1 of 3]

Joe,

I think you have accurately hit on the fact that modern methods of evangelism are not biblical. I have not previously heard of the phrases "interruption marketing" or "human spam," but from your descriptions, I think they are well-coined.

I went from "telling others" to "living the life." During that second phase, I did not have people come up to me and ask about any sort of beatific glow (not that one could be perceived) and the hope that lies within me. Providentially, God led me to a ministry which is having good impact and showed me another way.

If a building was burning and people were inside of it currently unaware of the flames, one wouldn't put on their best clothes and parade around outside hoping that those inside would notice them and want to come outside. In the same way, one can neither command everyone to come out of the building, especially without knowledge of what flames are. The difficulty Christians face is trying to convince people of the flames when they do not think that flames exist (yes, I'm speaking metaphorically here). In essence, I went from "living the life" to "asking and listening."

Upon already having a pleasant conversation, one can swing from the natural to the spiritual - so as to not shine a flashlight in someone's eyes to wake them out of their slumber, but rather using a light dimmer and increasing the light. Once spiritual topics are being discussed (and both people are comfortable in doing so, this is not a force situation), then I'll often attempt to go directly for their conscience.

I'll ask:
* "Have you ever told a lie?" (They answer "Yes.") "What does that make you?" (or if the person will not say the answer, the question can be rephrased, "What is a person who tells lies called?") (They answer, "A liar.")

* "Have you ever stolen anything, even if it's small, irrespective of its value (even a pen)?" (If "no", you can joke that they just admitted they are a liar. Most by that point will then answer "Yes.") What does that make you (or if the person will not say the answer, the question can be rephrased, "What is a person who steals something called?") (They answer, "A thief.")

* "Have you ever lusted after anyone?" (Most willingly and pridefully say "Yes.") "Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, any man who has lusted after a woman has committed adultery with her in his heart."

* "Have you ever taken the Lord's name in vain - used in a profane way or carelessly without honor?" (Some will even take His name in vain when answering.) "That is called blasphemy and it is very serious."

At this point, if I do not already know his/her name, I will ask for it and then say something like, "Well, Eric, *by your own admission* {that part is very important}, you have claimed to be a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart {many will reel back at that point, but will stay with the conversation} and we all have to face God personally on judgment day. (+ I'll discuss the atheism issue below) On that day, do you think God would find you innocent or guilty?"

Possibly the best article ever written by an "athe...

2009-11-03T17:07:14.003-05:00

Possibly the best article ever written by an "atheist".

As an atheist, please let me say how impressed I w...

2009-10-26T13:01:59.201-04:00

As an atheist, please let me say how impressed I was by your post.

If more people -- on both sides of the debate -- were this rational, we'd all be better neighbours.

Well said, sir.

I totally see your point. just responding to someo...

2009-10-13T13:22:39.343-04:00

I totally see your point.
just responding to someone else's comment..but Christians don't believe it's okay to sin just because they accepted Jesus Christ.

This is fantastic. I am a Christian, and I couldn...

2009-10-13T11:07:19.655-04:00

This is fantastic. I am a Christian, and I couldn't agree with you more. If one believes the gospel, then that must become both message and method. Thanks for the post!

Here's what I've learned: Atheists are long-winded...

2009-10-02T13:35:46.670-04:00

Here's what I've learned:
Atheists are long-winded.

We could also debate whether your smug sarcasm do...

2009-09-01T20:29:17.162-04:00

We could also debate whether your smug sarcasm does more to inflate the ranks of the "New Atheist Movement" or just your sizable ego.
You know, since we're all being so down to earth and honest and all.

Very well thought out. I haven't been hounded by e...

2009-08-29T21:18:01.740-04:00

Very well thought out. I haven't been hounded by evangelists yet. I've met a lot of nice Christian people who dont want to push their faith on me. I appreciate it and thereby actually consider liking them.

i know there's like a thousand and one comments on here. but i wanted to point out, that this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unicorn&qs_version=9
....yeah. i have a king james version and looked at my boyfriend's new international version.... it says ox in all of these, not unicorn. i think someone is trying to take advantage of people's book-stupidity and thinking we won't go look it up. it'd be cool.... but.... yknow. :/

I'm an agnostic, and what Joe is saying, in my cas...

2009-08-28T22:49:55.118-04:00

I'm an agnostic, and what Joe is saying, in my case, might actually work! I accept that I have no direct access to truth because I have no idea how I got here. I feel that I have some connection to something larger than me because of deeply personal experiences. I will call it what I will when the time is right.

I also think nobody gets to tell me they have a monopoly on truth. Everyone asserting anything is human, and therefore fallible. We forget things. Surely God, Jesus, Abraham didn't forget the fallibility of humankind. We have empiricism, which is a tool, but we can't know truth. At best, we can believe.

For the time being, grounding myself in a reality without Christ seems to make sense. Empiricism and proof seem to make sense, as I haven't fallen up, ever. But I am open to the idea that my reality isn't the complete picture.

I try to live a life of integrity and honesty to myself and to others, and like I said, I'm pretty fallible. So when I hear people reference a wager along the lines of "well, Christ could have died for our sins and could in fact be the one true savior... or he might not have, but what is the risk of believing if it could or could not be true if the outcome is eternal salvation if you believe..."

Here's the problem. I can't just believe. Then I'd be lying to myself and others, and to claim false belief would be un-Christian. I think. What makes you believe? How did you come to that conclusion? Don't give me canned proofs, tell me what was going through your mind.

So I wait. True, my past experiences with Christianity inform my present ones. I know my mother lost her relationship with my grandparents because she married a CONGREGATIONALIST. Even as a little kid, I knew this was messed up, and it wasn't my Mom's fault. My mom's faith buckled under the pressure of losing her family. Unfortunately, you hear a lot of stories like that in our oh-so-Christian country. My Congregationalist father is an amazing person! My earliest experiences of witnessed Christianity have been expressed to me by the same people who were letting Christ come between them and their families.

So when people use phrases like "truth-claim," I am a little confused (sorry, Truth Unites...). If you are Christian, your belief in Christ is what you have. I really respect that, and I kinda wish I had it. But if God exists, we all face judgment from the same God (right?), and so we are on our own to navigate the religious landscape. As humans, we do in fact seek community, but you don't have to look far to see how much they can vary.

Should I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, it isn't the authority of any man or woman that's going to give me cause. I am not going to be intimidated into believing, I'm just going to be intimidated. It seems to me that's why we have so many denominations, and they frequently don't agree.

I have seen love and compassion in the most surprising places, from Christians and non-Christians alike. The kinds of things that make me want to believe are found in quiet moments of reflection, not in moments of heated debate.

To become close with a Christian who I believed I could trust enough to talk about these things, that might be enough. I don't need it sugar coated, but to be honest, I'm scared of having these kinds of conversations with people who come out with their religions too quickly. A person's religion is an intimate thing. I mean, it changes your whole life.

Anna

Yes mate! This is the well-constructed version of ...

2009-06-26T08:42:49.246-04:00

Yes mate! This is the well-constructed version of an argument that must be in thousands of people's minds, those people willing to just analyse the situation. Great work!

Though, maybe some atheists need a guideline on how to talk to Christians? As you said, saying "I believe in x, therefore I'm right and your belief in y is misjudged" is not an effective way, however atheists too often say this. The whole empiricist/scientific method makes complete sense to an atheist, but isn't the determining factor for a Christian (I don't think).

What we do need is respect, and definitely if the Christians can just live the life that their god wants them to, then all fool us non-believers if they're right. But I suspect that interogation advertisement is not to their true code.

If your a gambler then you deal in probabilities. ...

2009-06-14T01:17:07.004-04:00

If your a gambler then you deal in probabilities.

What are the odds of the over 2500 prophecies in the bible over 2000 have come true.

Their are over 300 dealing with Christs return and 109 of them dealing with his Crucifiction and raising from the dead. There are very many that were over 100years before his birth and very specific.

If just 16 of these very specific prophecies came true it would be the odds of 1 to the 4 trillions.

People should get the book by Josh Mc Dowel "Evidence that demands a verdict" Josh was a atheist also and studied to prove the Bible wrong and became a believer.

You are right people should study to know what they believe. Their is lots of evidence to believe that Jesus is God it is up to people to get the information to find out for them selves.

Thanks

Mike

If your a gambler then you deal in probabilities. ...

2009-06-14T01:17:04.246-04:00

I an writing in response to the anonymous 16 year ...

2009-06-11T20:30:10.926-04:00

I an writing in response to the anonymous 16 year old's post.

I am sorry it took me so long to read this post and reply to it, but that's the wonderful thing about the internet. You van come back to things later and still find the thread you were on.

I am so impressed with the post, especially as it has come from a teenager. My friend you have a very wise head on your shoulders, and a very mature attitude compared to some people old enough to be your grand father, and who should probably know better.

I am a Christian believer as well, yet I can understand why someone would be an etheist. I feel that a lot of etheism is based on reason and logic, while faith is based more on inner knowing and intuition
You a right in pointing out that much judgement of others is useless and unecessary, yet at the same time we must have discernment and be able to tell right from wrong in a given situation. To do that you have to be able to say an action that someone has performed was 'wrong' or was 'right' without judging their soul.

We also need to avoid toxic niceness, and denial. We simply need to call things what they are. Saying a person is a murderer if they have been known to repeatedly murder people, is not judgement or condemnation, but fact. Calling someone a liar if they habitually lie about things is not judgement but fact. If someone has a drink problem, and is constantly drunk we have to be able to say that person is an alcoholic. Is that a judgement or a mere fact? Having said all that, know one lies all the time as far as I know. There will be times when they have told the truth. Infact apart from breathing there are very few actions , good or bad, that anyone does 100 percent of the time. So to be able to condemn someone completely you would have to prove that they do that negative action, and nothing else, 100 percent of the time,which is very unlikely. So as long as someone is capable of doing other things besides that one isolated negative thing, I don't think they can be 100 percent judged and condemned correctly. To give you an illustration of what I mean, is all lying condemnable, or some lying. If so how many lies can you tell or not tell before you allowed into heaven or sent to hell? Do you go to hell when you've told 100 lies, or 100,000 lies or jut 1 very big lie? Do you go to hell if you've stolen $20 or $2 million? Do you go to hell if you've murdered someone, confessed, done time in prison; or when you've murdered no one, but stood by quietly watching whilst thousands of people die of starvation, while you spend your own money on luxury items you don't need? See where this is going?

Now deciding where someone will go when they die is not really our job. That would be God's job. But the bible does state clearly what will happen to so called 'sinner' who are 'unrepentant', that they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That is a fact of the bible, and not a judgement. Stating the obvious truth to someone about their behaviour and where it will lead them, can be an act of love. Removing people who harm others by confining them to a physical space where they can not get access to others in order to harm them, can be an act of love, and not condemnation. Someone has to make the decision to put that person in jail. That is why we have judges and juries.Unfortunately, no matter how uncomfortable it is, where there are laws, that can and do get broken, whether those laws are spiritual or social, there will be the need to judge those actions for the benefit of the greater good. That is not the same as condemning a person to eternal hell. But then again often the worst judge of character is often the individual themselves, and not others or even God, at all. Individual's are good at condemning themselves by their very own thoughts and actions without help from anyone else.
Regards
Aartisans

P/S I apologize for any spelling or grammatical errors as I have posted this in a hurry.

tHANK YOU FOR YOU THOUGHTFUL COMENTS BUT YOU SHOUL...

2009-05-22T18:54:57.696-04:00

tHANK YOU FOR YOU THOUGHTFUL COMENTS BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE ADDED A DISCLAIMER THAT WENT LIKE THIS IN MY OPINON BECAUSE THAT IS ALL YOU EXPRESSED YOU PAINT WITH A PRETTY BROAD BRUSH MY BE YOU SHOULD TRY BELIEVING IN SOMETHING BEFORE PUTTING EVERY ONE WHO DOES DOWN AS A ANNOYING MARKETER OF RIDECULOUS STORIES YOU KNOW
ATHEISTS CAN BE PRETTY RUDE AND UNFRIENDLY THEMSELVES SO TAKE SOME OF YOUR OWN ADVICE AND GIVE OTHERS A FAIR HEARING . sEEING HOW YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS YOUR STANDARED TO LIVE BY AND WERE DID YOU GET IT.

Mmm.... to keep the ball rolling with an update, s...

2009-05-16T01:35:00.000-04:00

Mmm.... to keep the ball rolling with an update, some of your points are covered in more detail and with other illustrations in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and Christopher Hitchens' "God is Not Great". I urge everyone to read these books.

As for Christians, I can't help but equating them with poor thinking skills, low intelligence, lack of cultural knowledge and a poor education. It’s because I can’t find any other explanation, other than some kind of insecurity or masochistic flaw in their psychological make-up, for why they would swallow such outlandish fairy tales as you find in ludicrous books such as the Bible or the Koran. These texts are just so laughable to read that only an unsophisticated mind could accept such hogwash--for example, the mind of a desert dwelling peasant.

For people in modern developed countries with access to books and online information, it is a kind of wilful ignorance to continue sucking down all manner of religious Kool-Aid. That embrace of ignorance is dangerous as well as contemptible. But I also feel sorry for Christians because they will die after having lived an unexamined life.

Mmm.... to keep the ball rolling with an update, s...

2009-05-15T20:48:00.000-04:00