1.10.2008:
Followup on fist fighting
12:56 AMWow.
Well, the fist fight thing really stirred up some discussion. It ended up being
I wanted to clarify a few points that came up in email, IM, and comments:
1) I'm giving advice based entirely on my own experiences and training. There are as many opinions on fighting techniques, stances and behaviors are there are people fighting in the world, and really, there's no "right" and "wrong" - simply "effective" and "ineffective".
2) My advice is intended specifically for inexperienced people for whom there is no escape from a fighting situation. Flight is not an option. Training is non-existent.
3) The entire goal of the guide is to keep instruction minimal and intuitive - stuff you can readily recall when you're in a dangerous situation, and stuff that won't set a beginner / inexperienced person up for failure.
4) On kicks: In a REAL fight situation, anything that reduces balance or stability is stupid. Kicks - even to the shin - are not an option for a beginner fighter who has not spent time developing balance and strength in the ankles, hamstrings, knees, groin and waist. If you've trained kicks, and you want to incorporate kicks in your fighting style, I applaud you. But I refuse to advise people to disrupt the balance and stability of their base when they're not trained fighters (and more than likely, scared out of their minds to even be in the situation). I won't say you're wrong if you do. I just refuse to.
5) Training - any amount of training - produces a certain amount of rhythm and assumed knowledge (muscle memory). When trained or seasoned fighters read my guide and think things like "why is he suggesting going to the belly when you're on the ground" or "why is he recommending against hook punches" should realize - your training has placed you into a mindset where clarity and conviction are second nature. If you're a rank amateur with no fight training whatsoever, you should focus on the simplest possible ways to disable your opponent and get safe. Kicking, elbowing, knees, targeted blows... These things work. Very very well. But they require a base of training and knowledge that my intended audience won't have.
6) Grappling... If you don't know how to fight on the ground, get the HELL of the ground. It's something I just cannot recommend. If I personally were in a one-on-one fight with someone, regardless of their size, strength or fight style, I'd be on the ground with them in a millisecond, because I've trained in arts that focus on groundwork. But for the first, oh... Three months or so of learning that crap? I got OWNED on the ground. So did you. You can puff your chest out on the net and say "no way, I pwnd!" if you want, but it's a lie. Every beginning wrestler, BJJ fighter, Judo player, etc. found the ground to be the last place on earth they really wanted to be for at least 3 months. You have to learn it. If you have to learn it, it's out of my guide.
7) Thank you all for reading and commenting on the article. Even the dissenters brought to light very important information that is worthy of discussion - and anytime someone can learn a reason to do or not do something, I'm all for it, regardless of the tone in which it's done :)
8) The "stance" pic was only semi-serious. In reality, my hands would be a bit closer together and I wouldn't be fighting near my very expensive Transformers Masterpiece figures (on the wall in the background). And I'd probably remove my shirt to take away another point of grip for my opponent. And I'd be smiling like a maniac. And that's not my mother's house.
* * *
Archives
02.2003 03.2003 04.2003 05.2003 06.2003 10.2003 11.2003 12.2003 01.2004 04.2004 05.2004 06.2004 07.2004 08.2004 09.2004 10.2004 11.2004 12.2004 01.2005 02.2005 03.2005 04.2005 05.2005 06.2005 07.2005 08.2005 09.2005 10.2005 11.2005 12.2005 01.2006 02.2006 03.2006 04.2006 05.2006 06.2006 07.2006 08.2006 10.2006 11.2006 12.2006 02.2007 03.2007 04.2007 05.2007 06.2007 07.2007 08.2007 09.2007 10.2007 11.2007 12.2007 01.2008 02.2008 03.2008 04.2008 05.2008 06.2008 07.2008 08.2008 09.2008 10.2008 11.2008 12.2008 01.2009 02.2009 03.2009 04.2009 05.2009 06.2009 07.2009 08.2009 09.2009 10.2009 11.2009 12.2009 01.2010 02.2010
- The Insane Energy Drink Experiment
- How To Actually Get A Decent Tattoo
- The Ultimate Guide To Twitter
- How To Actually Talk To Atheists (If You're Christian)
- Why Men Fist-Bump
- How to Actually Win A Fist Fight
- The Absolute Beginner's Guide To Working Out
- Notes During A Teleconference
- The Rules of the Gym
My NEW book, also called
Mentally Incontinent
(with all new material)
out November 3rd!
My first book,
Mentally Incontinent
Read Now
SOLD OUT - FOREVER!
Here's why!
33 Comments:
Another important aspect I've been taught is using your VOICE!!!!!!!!
If an opponent is hurtling towards you or about to rain some punches into you, shouting at the top of your voice, "STOP!!!" or whatever, is going to throw him off guard and allow you to block and attack in a swift movement.
umm..
cmon, don't yell stop.
that will only boost his ego.
if you must yell, yell something that will Alarm him, such as officer over here, or some shit like that.
Rule #1
Never try to kick a guy in the head as your first move (applicable to those kick boxers, who seem to think this works)
Rule #2
Intimidate, takes em' down a notch, even if they are tougher bigger and meaner, specially then cause they don't understand it.
Rule #3 if you cannot look intimidating, don't try it will only make things worse.
I like your article tho fun stuff.
someone has to teach these poor saps what is up.
Don't forget street fighting rules.
and even a grappler gets his ass kicked by one.
street fighters will bit your balls off while finger banging your ass if he has too. don't ever forget that.
Badguy - yelling "STOP!" actually works. Or "GIRL!" or "MOM!". Mom especially. Because it's stunning. It's a total 'WTF' moment for your opponent (and everyone else, frankly). Its not really a good move for rank begginner though, because you have to connect while his eyebrows are still crawling up his forehead or all you've done is give him an advantage. If you connect during that fraction of a second, you've probably won.
For everyone, a piece of advice that helped me; It's cheaper and less painful for you if he's the one that has to recover. So try to hurt him, and hurt him bad, as quickly as possible. It ends the fight, scares anyone else who hears his bone(s) break, and he'll recover in a month or two. And his recovery is a small price to pay for you getting the hell out of a bad situation. It sucks, but he'll recover, so focus on hurting him and get it over with.
badguy PS - "street fighters will bit your balls off while finger banging your ass if he has too. don't ever forget that."
That is disgusting. And awesome. And I bet it works like a m*&% charm. LOL!
nice article. but you should know that its 2008 now.
Great Article. I completely agree that for people who have no experience it is difficult to use intelligent or complicated moves.
They should rely heavily on raw aggression and moves that are low on skill and high on power.
Usually these are dirty fighting techniques. Biting, Groin Kick, Eye Gouge and improvised weapons.
I have a self defense blog that discusses all of these things.
How to Fight
Make your first punch, a straight punch to the nose. That usually ends it, or shortens the fight considerably. A punch in the nose is blinding and very painful, and its hard to keep up a good fight after getting tagged like that.
The straight nose-punch has always been my first rule in fistfighting. Only because my very first fight in 5th grade ended this way. I was the guy who got socked, and I'll never forget how it took me out of the fight.
Another reason to avoid ground fighting even if you're comfortable with it - cowards have friends, and you cannot defend against them (or flee) while you are grappling with your opponent.
Nice info; hopefully some non-fighters will be able to defend a little better if needed.
On Voice:
This is important to remember. Anything which confers an advantage should be used. Anything.
Other Tips:
Spit. If he is close enough to puch, try spitting in his face. Human instinct is to close the eyes. Use this moment to break his face.
Movement. Don't walk like you are going for a stroll. Stay low and keep your steps short. Good mental image is to pretend you are ice-skating. Also, if possible, avoid backing up. Moving forward lessens the impact of the blow (as mentioned), and forces you foe to back up for proper range. This is a good time to strike. His attention is split and his guard is weak. Also, mentally the guy who is advancing is the guy who is winning. Always advance.
Straight lines counter Circles. Circles counter Straight lines.
If you opponent is using straights and jabs, move and attack in a circle. If you are being attacked with heymakers and hooks, then counter with moving forward and using straight punches.
Hope this helps.
Jesse
I would emphasize:
a) Run away. It's not cowardly, it's a way to avoid being injured. This solves the majority of fistfight problems right here. If you're in any way outnumbered, this is BY FAR the best choice. If your opponent has a weapon, this is BY FAR the best choice. The winner of a knife fight is the one in a hospital - the loser is in the morgue, of course.
b) If you can't do a), show confidence. Decide you're going to kick your opponent's ass, and do it. No half-measures. FEEL the adrenaline. Your advice here was good. I see a commenter has said "Advance", which is also excellent advice.
c) Find a weapon. Humans evolved by using the thighbones of animals to beat other animals to death. Until the proto-apes figured this out, they were just meat - after they figured it out, THEY were at the top of the food chain. The human body has few natural weapons, but it has a brain and grasping fingers, which allow it to find weapons and use them.
d) I was taught "kick, don't punch". Not high kicks, just low kicks to the knee to disable. Your feet are usually covered by shoes and thus can deliver hard blows without being hurt themselves. One decent kick to the knee and the fistfight is over.
e) If you have to punch, your advice seems right on. You should probably describe the proper straight punch: holding that fist tight and straight along your forearm, aim the knuckles of your first two fingers . Big knuckles of first two fingers is your striking spot, you should be able to lay a ruler down your forearm, across the back of your hand, and straight out to those knuckles. Deliver those knuckles, rolling your fist over as you do so, to a point about 1-2 inches behind your target (imagine you're punching through the target...). Roll your shoulder over and try to put your whole body into it.
f) The first instinct for many people appears to be to use your fists like hammers - swinging them down from the elbow as if to pound nails. This doesn't work. If you find yourself doing it, stop.
Another thing that beginners should keep in mind is Distance. You have to be much closer than you would initially think, if you are trying to connect with a blow. Most beginners waste energy "punching air". It's against instinct, but in order to actually hit somebody, you're going to have to get closer than you feel comfortable with. There's a good reason that you will feel uncomfortable - if you're close enough to hit your opponent, then the opponent is close enough to hit you back. Sounds simple, but real fighters have to train to ignore the instinct to stay out of reach. GOOD fighters know WHEN to close that distance. Picking the wrong time can end your fight in a way that will leave you hurting badly.
One other thought for you. Beginning fighters might want to avoid trying to jab somebody in the nose. Hitting a moving target in a specific place can be tricky, even for trained fighters. If you miss and hit them in a sturdier target, (like the cheek), you might just piss your opponent off, giving him/her a nice little adrenaline rush with which to fuel a good pounding. For beginners, jabs are best used on soft targets, as set-ups for a stronger follow-up attack.
Ok, despite this being a rip-off of an article in a GQ or Men's Journal magazine sometime in the last year, most of this is OK.
As many have noted, punching leads to injuries, leading to arrests/legal bills/medical bills but, hey, if some billy bob is about to give you a sock in the face, self defense is pretty easy to establish in a crowd.
Your claim that bravado and bluster will intimidate Mr. Meany is a waste. Mr. Meany has been drinking and cares little for your mouth words. Time to defuse/downplay the situation. Even if you are right, diplomacy can still work. Buy a pitcher, apologize for groping Ms. Meany, whatever. Key is to avoid having to punch. Throw in a self-deprecating joke, make M.Meany feel right/smart/superior and then leave. Winning a fight, when a little diplomacy could have solved the situation makes you the idiot.
Now, should it come to blows, or a pre-emptive action, the straight punch, even without much power behind it, right to the nose is the single BEST way to quickly end a fight. Mr. Meany falls down (if you don't believe me self administer a decent bop to your noggin and try to look straight/walk straight/keep knees from buckling), blood gushes out (noses bleed..a lot) and everyone will freak at the sight of Mr. Bleeding Meany, giving you ample time to bolt. Which you should do right away. One decent punch, right to the nose and a quick rush to the exit. This is THE single most effective way to end a fight. I have seen gargantuan monster guys fall straight down once hit right in the nose. I mean big fucking tough dudes. I have seen them stay down, waiting for their chick to start helping them, she’s screaming bloody murder at you, shouting for someone to call the cops, etc. pretty fucking hilarious.
Self-defense, as an explanation to the annoyed cops, works even if you've thrown the only punch and threw first. I know as it has worked for me, just like above. Seriously. It works even better if Mr. Meany is a big, tatted up dude was just put on his knees by harmless you. His face and shirt will be all bloody and he will not be overly interested in making up a story or excuse as to why you, Mr. Normal Dude, just walked up and launched an unprovoked attack on his nose. The cops will recognize all of this and wonder what could cause Mr. Normal Dude to crack Mr. Meany for no good reason. Simply state he was threatening you and you feared for your safety and were left with no alternative in the confrontation. This, explained clearly will keep the cuffs off.
Other junk in the article, like kicking, is worthless. Fights like this last about 30 seconds, at most, before a bouncer or friends intervene and the sides are untangled. What might happen is things go straight to grappling/pulling/shoving/etc but this is not fighting. If you fall down or end up wrestling on the ground, grab a pain spot, like an ear or eye and watch how quick Mr. Meany lets go. Fuck him, wuss. Then punch him in the nose and split.
If you can’t get up, just start screaming like crazy. I mean fucking crazy. Fake a serous injury. FUCK< FUCK< FUCK MY NECK AAAAAAHHHHHHH FUCK…..then limp up for a second. The dude will freak. Natural instinct will be he eases up enough so you can at least make a bolt for the door. At best, you can escape (clearly things were going poorly) at worst, you’ve re-gained you feet and gained 5 seconds of composure, even Mr. Meany might get a grip.
I have seen the "Crazy guy" act work before but unless you can tap that primal part of your being, it will come out fake.
Work to avoid the fight but be immediately ready to throw a nice solid punch to the nose. Act calm and then pop it. Remember, it does not have to be crazy hard to work. A nose is weak, prone to lots of SCARY bleeding and VERY VERY sensitive (hurts bad) even Mr. Meany’s nose.
Talk/Apologize/Joke/Punch Nose/Run.
Honestly, If winning a fight for self-preservation is your primary reason almost 99% of these fight scenarios and techniques can be avoided with one pocket sized 15 dollar can of tactical pepper spray.
Get the one small enough to hide in your hand (and carry in your pocket)and suprise your opponent during the stand off. This technique will put him to the ground and scatter the crowd.
-But heres they best part. -Watch your opponent (and any of his posse) cry like schoolgirls on the ground begging for their mommies. -Priceless!
There's no chilvary in fist-fighting these days . There's no honorable way to get your ass kicked either. If you go to the ground modern kids will stomp and kick you to death.
A friend of mine was murdered on Halloween thinking he was going to have a good old-fashioned fist fight but these kids thought otherwise.
Not worth it- By the pepepr spray.
I think, for a completely untrained fighter, the article has some good, solid advice. Yes, you will get hit, but it's generally not as bad as you expect; I came to this conclusion after getting nailed in the face by a black belt I was sparring with. That, I think, is what makes people freeze in a fight. They anticipate the blow, and overestimate the effect of the punch.
The only bit of advice I would add or change is the use of the fist. If you're not used to throwing a punch, it's easy to roll a fist into a sprained wrist, or worse. I'd recommend using fists on soft targets, and palm strikes for hard targets, but that may be complicating things a bit more than intended for a beginner.
Best advice I can give is train, train, train.
"Have you ever seen the movie Million Dollar Baby? You know the part where Clint Eastwood tells Hillary Swank to step into a punch to minimize its effectiveness?"
I think you meant MAXIMIZE the effectiveness.
Also, why teach punching when real fights are ended with headbutts, knees and elbows.
I highly recommend some of Paul Vunak's dirty fighting videos. He has one or two that I know of. One focuses on biting, not simply biting but where, how, etc.
The knight who fights and runs away, lives to fight yet another day.
He meant step in to minimize the effect of an INCOMING blow. He was not talking about stepping in to a punch you are throwing.
Acting like a nut is important.
Confidence is intimidating.
Strength and posture are intimidating.
But nobody wants to fight a drooling, barking nutcase.
I like strong side foot back rather than forward so I can transfer more energy into my punches. I also maneuver better that way. About 45 degrees. Presents a smaller target too.
Your mileage may be different but I think that people tend to naturally favor one or the other, especially in untrained fighting, and will revert to what they instinctively do so it's good to practice both and figure out which way you dodge better. Pick the one you're better at using and is more comfortable, especially if you don't spar to practice doing something that may feel un-natural.
Almost forgot: Weight mostly on the ball of the back foot until you transfer it as you throw a strong side punch. Your strong side punches benefit more from the transfer than jabs, which are going to be weak anyway.
The weight transfer makes a hell of a difference if you want to knock somebody down/out instead of play kiddiefight. The faster a fight is over the safer you are.
Confidence and Rage can go along way for someone who is not experienced. Although it may not do too much against someone who is a trained fighter most people aren't and it can easily tip the scale in your favor.
I've got a lot of Fighting Techniques and Self Defense Techniques at my self defense site. Great post.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about the kick thing. You're probably right for someone with absolutely no training whatsoever. I'm still tempted to say that if presented with the opportunity, kick 'em in the balls and run like hell.
I had a pretty nontraditional sensei (to say the least) for my first couple of years of wado but one thing piece of his advice that I've always really bought into was this: if you absolutely can't avoid a fight, then disable your opponent as quickly as possible and run away. It was his opinion that all the shit we did in sparring class was useless (other than learning to take a punch) in real life until we had been doing it for decades.
I have been in two street fights as an adult. Both of them ended with him holding his balls and me getting the hell out of there. One of those was my knee into his balls. I can agree that might be easier for someone with no training. The other ended up being my shin in his crotch. At that point, I hadn't been in a dojo in at least four years, so I think it's fair to say that any balance or reflex training I'd once had was long gone.
Whenever I've given anyone advice about fighting, it still starts with "avoid it at almost any cost", but the next words out of my mouth are that if you can't avoid it, you need to disable your opponent and get away as quickly as possible. Don't worry about fighting fair. There's no such thing.
My brother (who is an accomplised marshall artist) has always told me that the most important factor in winning a street fight is to get your adrenaline levels and blood flow up by jumping around and getting psyched.
Whovever has their levels up the highest will dominate the beginning of a fight and if you've ever been in a street fight you know they generally don't last long -so your odds are much higher if you dictate the beginnings of the fight.
If you try and play it cool like an action movie star you will sacrifice blood flow and adrenaline release which will impact reaction time/relexes/strength/pain threshold/ etc.
The moral is -act a fool, be a friggin' madman.
Like Tom said above, I think it is more natural to have your strong foot back in the stance so that it can provide power into the punches.
Also, I think you need to distinguish bar fights from street fights. In a bar fight, your main goal is to just maintain your safety until the bouncers break it up, and the fight is likely to be a bit more of a "fair" fight in that no guns or knives are likely to be involved.
In a street fight, you must assume that you may up dead, and so then fight/run for your life. Biting and weapons are par for the course.
Maybe it's just me, but no one has ever successfully kicked me in the balls during a fight.
Maybe it's that they "crawl up" (a result of fear -- I'm always afraid in a fight, I won't lie), or that I instinctively move back.
Whichever, I usually get kicked in, um, the other part of my groin, which BURNS like hell, but isn't disabling.
About the strong foot in front or back, I must say I'm not sure about which one to choose.
As to what Jabelar said: here in Belgium, where I go out in my spare time, most bars don't have a bouncer anyway. So if you do get into a fight, it tends to get quite nasty unless your bartender happens to resemble a Hulk-like figure (actually, I do know a bar like that, hehe). But somewhere, you're right.
And on the round-house kicks: even in dancing, there is something called a "hook-turn" (for instance in salsa, but probably not limited to this). It's a simple 360° turn for the man (as opposed to the double or even triple once for the lady). That simple, basic move takes wééks of practise, so I can imagine that the amateur and newby "I got into a fight"-person might want to re-consider using such a (albeit cool) move...
Either way, nice post. (and again, I second jabelar's emotion)
Egidius
I've been in two fights in the last...oh..15 years. In the first, I was running, (I used to run around a lake every morning) and a guy jumped in front of me yelling garbage. I kept trying to get around him but he kept blocking my way until I realized he seriously did want to kick my ass. Despite the advice here I jumped up and kicked him with both feet in the chest. He was so surprised when he went down. I quickly grabbed him by the throat and slammed his head down, then kicked him in the ribs. I finished my run. The second fight, I was pulling up to a traffic light when a guy cut in front of me. I stopped to let him in (like I had a choice) but he sat there and screamed obscenities at me. He had a very unusual car and the guy was worked up beyond belief and when I rolled down the window--really just because I couldn't understand all he was saying--he got real excited. Too excited, but just sat in his car saying, "Come on bitch. Come on over here". I just sat behind him at the light and let him call me names until he drove off. It was so strange that I just couldn't get insulted. About two months later he was arrested for robbing a casino and shooting the unarmed employees to death. He got life in prison.
Great article. Many of the things you preach I picked up in a self-defense book I read when I was around 8 (40 now). I was VERY small for my age and was a constant magnet-target for bullies. The need to avoid a fight if at all possible is great advice. The fact that if you recognize that you will get hit and it will hurt, is helpful too. If you accept that up front you are prepared and will be a much tougher opponent. If they see fear....no talk or crazy act will help you avoid a fight. Show confidence. I have been in a few fights. I am NOT a badass. But I win, everytime (so far anyway) because I don't fight unless it is unavoidable, but if it is unavoidable, I am confident as hell and they can see that, even in a drunken haze they can see it. It has gotten me out of quite a few nasty situations. All in all, great advice for us non-profesionals. I would recomend this article to anyone as a basic (as intended) plan of action.
Great article! I found it randomly by stumbling and I was instantly fascinated. Although I'm a woman, and don't really intend on getting into any fist fights anytime soon, I think it's important information to know.
I am going to a wedding where the only enemy I've ever made is going to be a bridesmaid.
I think she may come at me with a knife - or at the very least, screaming and scratching and hitting.
I am going to take the general consensus of advice here and solidly punch her in the face as soon as she comes near me (only in a threatening manner obviously).
I'm not a smoker but I'll carry a lighter too.
Thanks for all the tips!!
interesting read... just got drugged&robbed&beaten a couple months ago. the guy was a typical boxer & me normal guy off my head waiting to get knocked out. so the flee part isnt always an option when u dont know wheres the ground and wheres the sky...this was for the amateurs... bloody pig finished me with rocks... bleeding but ran as hell! thanks for the info anyway!
-H from Finland-
good stuff. time to go get in a fight! ;)
-Jack
I didn't read every single comment, so i may be repeating, but if you are in a situation where you KNOW a fight is coming HIT FIRST!!! Most times the first blow is the determining blow! In fact I did that in my college town with a local who was much bigger than me (I was cornered and dating his ex). He had a reputation as a "badass". I knew it was coming so I took the first opportunity to hit him in the nose with everything I had. He went down hard, lots of blood, and the fight was broken up before another punch could be thrown by anyone. The added benefit was that I never had to fight anyone in that town again, because now everyone thought that I was a "badass".
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]